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  #1  
Old Jan 7th 2011, 8:31 am
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Juan Pierre trade, pt 2.

Archer, Lee, Chirinos, Guyer for Matt Frickin' Garza

I'm officially on board the fire Hendry bandwagon.

It's pathetic that the Cubs refused to get involved with Greinke talks with the same package.

Its the Cubs, Stupid.
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  #2  
Old Jan 7th 2011, 9:21 am
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Let's see what the final trade ends up being. I'm willing to bet that the Cubs get back more than just Garza. Also, the Cubs will follow this up with a trade of either Wells or Gorz, and get something strong back in return.

I'd hate to give up Lee and even Guyer...I've never been a huge Archer guy, even though he's our top rated pitching prospect...and Chirinos is a 26-27 year old minor league catcher.

I am a huge Matt Garza fan. I believe he continues to get better every year...and has done so in the toughest division in baseball to pitch.

Let's wait this one out and see what really goes down.
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  #3  
Old Jan 7th 2011, 10:14 am
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two or three moves away from being competitive
This is Big Jim playing his game. First off , do we really need another Zambrano ( a volatile under achiever )?

I agree that Chirinos , an older catching prospect when we have Brenly coming up behind him , and Archer , who we basically got for free with DeRosa trade , would not be that big of a loss but trading one of our best infield prospects is stupid. Who , outside of Hendry , really thinks this team can get anywhere in this division this year ?
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  #4  
Old Jan 7th 2011, 10:45 am
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Originally Posted by LeeEila's/rant View Post
This is Big Jim playing his game. First off , do we really need another Zambrano ( a volatile under achiever )?

I agree that Chirinos , an older catching prospect when we have Brenly coming up behind him , and Archer , who we basically got for free with DeRosa trade , would not be that big of a loss but trading one of our best infield prospects is stupid. Who , outside of Hendry , really thinks this team can get anywhere in this division this year ?
"do we really need another Zambrano ( a volatile under achiever )"

How is Garza a "volatile underachiever"? At the age of 26, in a division where he faced the lineups of Boston and New York numerous times, Garza put up an ERA under 4, and a WHIP of 1.251. In the NL, that translates to an ERA of 3, and a WHIP of 1.1. The past 3 seasons, at the ripe ages from 24-26, in by far the toughest division to pitch, Garza put up three consecutive seasons with an ERA under 4, and a WHIP under 1.3. Added to that is Garza's post season experience. Garza has a career 3.48 ERA and 1.290 WHIP, in the playoffs.

Garza is 27...coming to the NL...and he's only going to get BETTER.

"Archer , who we basically got for free with DeRosa trade , would not be that big of a loss"

I may not be a big fan of Archer, but I would NEVER refer to him as "not a big loss". Baseball America just came out with it's Cubs prospect rankings. Guess who they have ranked as the Cubs number 1 prospect? Yep...Chris Archer. Anytime you trade away your best prospect, especially when he's a pitcher, it's a big deal!

Lee was ranked 4th...Guyer 10th. As it pertains to Lee, the Cubs don't have a place for him in the future. With Castro and DeWitt, I believe the Cubs are content with what they have for a long time. Hence, Lee was expendable.

I am actually bothered by giving up Guyer most of all. Guyer did a little bit of everything. He looked like he was only getting better.

The Cubs also give up Chirinos and Sam Fuld. Neither player is worth losing sleep over. Besides Garza, the Cubs are getting Fernando Perez, a speedy outfielder who can't hit...and a minor league pitcher.

"Who , outside of Hendry , really thinks this team can get anywhere in this division this year"

Me! The Cubs aren't done this off-season. As of right now, the Cubs boast a staff of: Dempster/Garza/Zambrano/Wells/Gorz. That's pretty solid! Added to that, the Cubs now have a bullpen of: Guzman/Cashner/Grabow/Marshall/Wood/Marmol. That's a very good bullpen!

People have to remember...Garza is only going to get BETTER...especially in the NL.

At first glance this move may upset some...but I really like it. I think Garza will have a very strong season for the Cubs in 11', and beyond!
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  #5  
Old Jan 7th 2011, 11:21 am
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AL pitchers do better in the NL . What if the guy is used to pitching in big parks then moves to a bandbox ? What if the guy tends to elevate his pitches and has a huge flyball ratio ? Does the AL east have Pujols , Holliday , Braun , Fielder , Votto ?

Archer is a slider-king much like another pitcher we have and he would fall into the same role as our current slider-king is in. So his value to the Cubs is deminished because we have a Marmol.

I don't see where the screaming need was in pitching , outside of fixing the pen , but Wood fixed that.


So we will have a few more 3-0 losses


We have to hit. The only move we made in offence is a guy that hit .216 in a contract year.

Quote:
a speedy outfielder who can't hit
plenty of these guys out there . How does Garza make us closer to building a winning team ? Our trades would and 20 million we spent on thse two would do much better in 2012 with a spots in the outfield and infield to fill.
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  #6  
Old Jan 7th 2011, 1:53 pm
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This is my general opinoin of all players involved

Lee - I don't put stock in hitting prospects until they've shown they can hit in the AFL. The Cubs are stocked with MIF. Lake and Lemehiue could easily surpass Lee's on the offensive side of the ball.

Archer - I'd rather trade him than McNutt. I still hate getting rid of a lefty who can dominate. Not too many lefty top of the rotation types out there.

Guyer - ok the Cubs don't have a spot for him.

Chirinos - whatever

Fuld - whatever
----------------------------------

Garza - IMO he's not that significantly better than Wells or Gorz. Is he better?? yes. Not good enought to deal a 5-star and 4-star prospect for though.

What people aren't talking about is he also pitched in front of one of the best defenses in the league in TB. Will he be getting better coming to the NL CEntral?? Sure, but he will surely be giving some of that back when pitching in front of the Cubs defense, especially since he's somewhat of a flyball pitcher and the cubs seem to be planning to sit their best OF Defender for a guy whose RF defense isn't that great.

If the Cubs had made this move going into 08 or 09 I would have been pumped. But I just don't see how this makes the team significantly better, hence why I thought it has some parallel to the Pierre trade.

Also, this probably means Cashner is out of the rotation.

#1 I'm still disappointed the Cubs didn't attempt to land Greinke with this kind of package.
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  #7  
Old Jan 7th 2011, 2:32 pm
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Garza - IMO he's not that significantly better than Wells or Gorz. Is he better?? yes. Not good enought to deal a 5-star and 4-star prospect for though.

What people aren't talking about is he also pitched in front of one of the best defenses in the league in TB. Will he be getting better coming to the NL CEntral?? Sure, but he will surely be giving some of that back when pitching in front of the Cubs defense, especially since he's somewhat of a flyball pitcher and the cubs seem to be planning to sit their best OF Defender for a guy whose RF defense isn't that great.
Right on !!

Most people labor under the false idea that the NL Central is weak. The BEST hitters and some of the best pitching is found here ! The Brewers got significantly better this off season. The Cardinals will always be good with the two big bats and Wainwright Carpenter . The Reds will be better and the Astros haven't lost anything .

All we have now is less money trade bait and an all right handed rotation !
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  #8  
Old Jan 7th 2011, 4:00 pm
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NM Chris ARcher is a righty, I must have been thinking of Chris Rusin.

In any case, the trade is done now.

As an aside, I just read somewhere interesting that this could have been a Wilken/Bush influenced move, as Bush was in the front office in MN when Garza was drafted, and Wilken in the Front Office of TB when they traded for him.

And also the Cubs for whatever reason really believe GArza is better than Greinke.
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  #9  
Old Jan 7th 2011, 8:07 pm
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I'm hearing some info about the pitcher. This will be pleasing if my info is accurate, almost makes losing Archer a non-factor.
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  #10  
Old Jan 8th 2011, 12:36 pm
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Originally Posted by LeeEila's/rant View Post
Right on !!

Most people labor under the false idea that the NL Central is weak. The BEST hitters and some of the best pitching is found here !

All we have now is less money trade bait and an all right handed rotation !
"Right on !!

Most people labor under the false idea that the NL Central is weak. The BEST hitters and some of the best pitching is found here ! "


The NL Central DOES NOT compare to the AL East(NY, BOS, TB, TOR). Also, there's a little thing called the DH, which Garza was facing in the AL. Now, instead of facing a tough hitting DH....Garza faces A PITCHER. Hence moving from the AL East, where Garza posted 3 straight seasons with an ERA under 4, and a WHIP under 1.3, to the NL Central...only makes a pitcher more effective. Furthermore, Garza is now entering his PRIME(28-33) years. So he is only going to get better as a pitcher.


"All we have now is less money trade bait and an all right handed rotation"

The Cubs had two lefties in the rotation last season...where did that get them?

The Cubs have a good trade chip in Gorz now. Teams would love to have a young, cheap, starting lefty. He would net a nice return.

I am not in the "Garza is better than Greinke" camp...but I do think he has the ability to be a #1 starter.
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